Repodcast: Deflating Political Football with Tania Israel
Nov 23, 2022 | Part 1 of our 2021 Holiday Survival Kit series
Happy Thanksgiving from The Purple Principle team! This week we’re revisiting an episode from November 2021.
In the aftermath of another fractious election season, and heading into the holiday season, it feels appropriate to bring psychologist Tania Israel back into the feed. She explains the active listening methods we need to have genuine conversations across the political divide and across the dinner table, when opposing viewpoints are in the house.
Are we Americans trapped in our end zones of polarized bubbles ever more motivated to reason away conflicting viewpoints?
Our featured guest, psychologist Tania Israel, thinks not and should know. Dr. Israel has been holding workshops over the past two decades to help participants bridge political and social divisions. In this Purple Principle episode, co-hosts Robert Pease & Jillian Youngblood speak with Tania about these workshops, her flowchart that (almost) solved political polarization, and her book, Beyond Your Bubble: How to Connect Across the Political Divide.
With Dr. Israel’s facilitation, we apply the bubble bursting toolkit to a serious in-house case of affective (aka negative) polarization -- Jillian’s deep dislike of the New England Patriots, especially ex-Patriot and presumptive GOAT (greatest of all time), quarterback Tom Brady, stemming from her identity as a New York Jets Fan.
“I’m so glad you brought up something that’s so central to our democracy,” quips Israel, who gamely plays along as we advance this metaphor down the political football field.
Family gatherings were never friction-free. Then polarization came along. Listen in for helpful advice from an all-star in respectful and compassionate dialogue, just in time for Thanksgiving.
SHOW NOTES
Guest:
Tania Israel: Website, Twitter, Book, Faculty page.
Additional Resources:
How to Win a Political Argument | Dr. Tania Israel | TEDxSanLuisObispo
Moderates are less likely to post about their political views on social media | Pew Research
The Bias Blind Spot: Perceptions of Bias in Self Versus Others
Motivated Skepticism in the Evaluation of Political Beliefs | AJPS
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Tania Israel
I'm going to start back in the mid-1990s when I started a group to bring together pro-choice and pro-life people to have dialogue with each other…
Robert Pease (co-host)
That’s Dr. Tania Israel. She’s a professor of psychology at UC Santa Barbara and author of the book Beyond Your Bubble: How to Connect Across the Political Divide.
Tania Israel
It didn't change anything about how I felt about reproductive rights, but it changed everything about how I felt about people who disagreed with me about it. And it has influenced my work and my life since then to just have that kind of humanization of people who have a different perspective.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Humanization’s on the agenda today. This is the Purple Principle, a podcast about the perils of political and social polarization. I’m Robert Pease. And welcome to the first in our 3-part series on how to survive those red & blue holidays.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
And I'm Jillian Youngblood: really psyched to meet Dr. Israel today. Having run workshops for 20-plus years, she’s going to help us move beyond our bubbles and actively listen to viewpoints we usually discount, ignore, or even denigrate.
Robert Pease (co-host)
She’ll introduce us to the idea of intellectual compassion...
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
While explaining the concepts of affective polarization (as in automatically mistrusting people from the other political party), and motivated reasoning (as in only hearing what you want to hear).
Robert Pease (co-host)
Tania will then apply these tools to a challenging case in real time: a long suffering New York Jets fan and podcast co-host breaking out of her long-festering, anti-Tom Brady bubble.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
No guarantees on that one.
Robert Pease (co-host)
A Super Bowl of bubble-bursting today on the Purple Principle with psychologist and author, Tania Israel. Starting with the impetus for her workshops and one very ambitious flow chart...
[Into Interview]
Tania Israel
With the results of the election in 2016, it was clear that our country was having a lot of trouble, that people were having trouble connecting across the divide. So the first thing that I made was something that I call “the flowchart” that will resolve all political conflicts in our country (because I'm optimistic like that.) So, you know, I wanted to help people to be more intentional and to think about what they were doing and to know what kinds of skills or strategies might be helpful. Spoiler alert: it did not actually resolve all political conflict in our country— yet. So then I made this two-hour workshop, because I thought, “Well, maybe people need help developing those skills: the skills of listening and perspective-taking and managing emotions.” And several hundred people went through the workshop and I heard the struggles that people were having and it was clear from there that we still needed more resources. So I wrote Beyond Your Bubble.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
That's great. And so it seems like every issue now is abortion. Like every issue suddenly feels— not suddenly, but over the past few years— feels as fraught as that. And now it's like everything is an explosion. So do you feel like this work has gotten more difficult over the last few years?
Tania Israel
I feel like this work has gotten more important over the last few years. Absolutely. Things are so fraught. It seems like every issue is so polarized, but I also see some tremendous opportunity in that. So if we're able to listen and to be curious and connect with people who have different ideas than we do, that's going to be really beneficial to us as individuals and as a democracy.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
So how do you— I was wondering— can you talk a little bit about active listening? So I run a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization called Civic Genius. We're a civic engagement group and I was joking earlier that I sometimes feel like I am extensively a practitioner of this, but it's also kind of a support group for me. I know that I need it in my personal life and I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit more about that.
Tania Israel
Absolutely. Often when we're having conversations, we are listening to respond rather than listening to understand. And so when we're listening to respond, somebody will say something that they think, and then we say what we think back. And that, you know, can be useful at times for an exchange of ideas. But especially when there's a situation where we may not have the trust built, where we really may be coming from very different perspectives, it doesn't help to move that conversation forward for us to do that. It can just get us sort of further apart. So when somebody says what they think, rather than coming back with what you think, you come back with what they think, reflecting back what they just said in a way. And it does a couple of things. One thing that that does is it helps them to feel like you understood them. And that is just a healing process in itself. It also makes sure that you did actually understand them.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
And do you find that our, our media ecosystem and our media culture has made that more difficult? Do you find that people are just kind of, sometimes I feel just overstimulated by like, “I can't stop reading Twitter all day,” and there's so much incoming that it's hard to make space in your brain for that kind of listening.
Tania Israel
Absolutely. So media and social media are both really, I think, contributing to this polarization for a couple of reasons. One thing is that media focuses on the more extreme perspectives and experiences and they do that because that's what sells, and so it's a lot more interesting to interview people who are at extreme sides and to interview someone who says, “Yeah, I can really see both sides of that issue.” Let me also address that question as it relates to social media, because social media— it turns out that people who are posting on social media about politics are more likely to have more extreme views. So once again, it is getting us in this mindset that that's who everybody is, that everybody's more extreme.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Um, but Tania, most of our listeners are not actually internet trolls. I'm happy to say they are generally independent unaffiliated voters, probably more moderate on most issues, at least less ideological. So we just wondered in your workshops and in your teaching or consulting what experience you've had with the more independent voter who's not so closely-tied to the two political views we hear so much about.
Tania Israel
Oh, that's a great question. And just shout out to all the people who aren't extremist because I feel like you are not being represented very well in the media and in people's minds and understanding. And so I think it's so important that we shine a light on people who are more moderate, independent— might have certain views on some issues, different views on other issues. I came across this great literature on affective polarization. We usually think about polarization as being between people on the left and people on the right. But affective polarization says that there's the other way of thinking of things where some people are more sort of emotionally reactive to the news and to what's going on in the world. And then you've got all these people who might have just other priorities in their lives, who aren't as emotionally reactive to it, who are watching more network news rather than, you know, cable news on either side. And I think that a lot of these folks are feeling like, you know, what's being said about politics doesn't resonate with them. And a lot of these people are really checking out of the process because between the left and the right is really a turnoff. And when they say, you know, “Both sides seem the same,” and people on each side say, “well, that can't be possible, like we have such different values.” But in terms of the tone, both sides sound very similar, I think.
Robert Pease (co-host)
In your book, you speak a lot about the importance of compassion and humility and curiosity, and we're just wondering what your influences have been in raising the importance of those particular traits.
Tania Israel
So I came across this literature on intellectual humility that I really wasn't familiar with before. I was doing this work on the book. And it's part of cultural humility. That intellectual humility is really this ability to say, “Okay, I might hold very strong and even more extreme views on something. But I can still be respectful of and interested in hearing from people who hold a different perspective, that hearing that other perspective doesn't threaten me.” So that literature on intellectual humility, I think, is important for us to keep in mind as a really useful stance of going into these conversations.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Yeah, we're also wondering if you've observed any generational differences. We had a guest on earlier, Dr. Abigail Marsh from Georgetown, and she was talking about these seminars that she holds on empathy and communication and how difficult it is for students to do this exercise, where they have to talk to someone of another political viewpoint.
Tania Israel
I've had people in my workshops— like anywhere from high school students to people in their eighties. And young people seem to be able to do these things or not do these things. Older people seem to be able to do these things or not do these things. And I always focus on motivation in my workshops. I always ask people, you know, “What is it that brought you here? What is it that interests you about dialogue?” So the number one thing that I hear from folks is, “There's someone in my life who I want to stay connected with and I'm having trouble doing that because of our political differences.”
[Exit interview]
Robert Pease (co-host)
Alright, Jillian, a lot of valuable advice there from Dr. Israel on active listening, on intellectual humility, and just plain compassion. You can definitely hear even in that short exchange how effective she must be in these workshops.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
I am actively listening to you, Rob. But I’m also thinking about that important point she made about tone, and how the extremes sound so alike to someone who’s more moderate, or just not a big news junkie.
[Archival audio-assorted cable news clips]
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
And of course I’m wondering how to apply all these things over at Civic Genius, where we try to foster understanding among people with pretty genuine political disagreements.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Not an easy thing. That’s the great value of people like Dr. Israel who can have weighty discussions but keep their own politics out of the emotional way. Just as you are about to do, Jillian, in the next part of the interview with your football politics and extreme anti-Tom Brady views.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Not extreme. They’re the norm everywhere but New England, where you live. And maybe now Tampa. I didn’t want to bring up Deflategate, but you are really forcing my hand here...
Robert Pease (co-host)
That was a brilliant use of air pressure. But let’s try to advance this football metaphor on our field of polarization and see if Dr. Israel can deflate just a bit of Jillian’s Tom Brady complex now that Brady’s changed his colors and his former Patriots are pretty much out of office.[Return to interview]
Robert Pease (co-host)
Right here on our team, we have this really intense controversy over an upcoming script where really all Jillian has to say is that “Tom Brady is an asset to any football team” and she just can't do it. There's too many priors. There's too much motivated reasoning here. So what would you do to help Jillian get over this particular problem?
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
There's no way I’m saying that.
Tania Israel
I'm so glad you brought up something that's so central to our democracy. I think as we think about, you know, how people feel as Patriots this is certainly an important issue. So if I'm in a different perspective than Jillian, I guess I would start by saying, you know, “Jillian, I’d really be curious to hear more from you about your feelings about Tom Brady.”
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
So I'm a Jets fan. I've always been a Jets fan and its core— now I'm just like spelling it out— it's core to my identity. Now I’m just spelling it out that I hate the Patriots.
Robert Pease (co-host)
But he's a Buccaneer now.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Yeah, of course, because Tom Brady's loyalties, like where are they even? Tom Brady is in his career for himself. It's about optics. There's no loyalty.
Tania Israel
So it sounds like you have just a long history of hating the Patriots that's really connected to your love of the Jets also.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Yeah, I think that's fair. And I don't know— I mean, I think Rob, maybe, as a Patriots fan— just making a geographic guess here— but I think their fans are terrible. I meet terrible Patriots fans all the time.
Tania Israel
Okay. So you've had some bad history with Patriots and Patriots fans. You've got a strong identity with the Jets. Rob, it sounds like you've got some opinions about this also, but can you reflect back what you heard from Jillian about her views?
Robert Pease (co-host)
Well, I'm not even like a big football fan and I'm just innocently writing this script, which calls for two examples of pro athletes who benefit any team. And Jillian's unable to say Tom Brady. So now I have to say Tom Brady and she has to say LeBron James. So there is a solution. But it doesn't help Jillian with this deep-rooted psychological problem that she has.
Tania Israel
So I hear that you've got a perspective on Jillian’s stance and I'm wondering— if you were going to try to understand it from Jillian's view— then what do you think Jillian would say about why she is not a fan of Tom Brady?
Robert Pease (co-host)
Well, I do understand from many other friends that New England had it too good for too long. And there's a lot of resentment and jealousy out there. I'm not even, you know, like a football fan. But it is absurd. The expectation here in New England for so long is, you know, we'll be in every Super Bowl and people were rightly jealous of that.
Tania Israel
And Jillian, does that resonate for you in terms of your perspective?
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
It does. I think if I'm being honest, the Jets are not a super-winning football team and it is endlessly painful. And I think that some of my venom for Tom Brady is coming from this feeling that the Patriots always have it and the Jets never have it.
Tania Israel
That's gotta be painful to keep seeing that happen.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
You have no idea.
[Exit interview]
Robert Pease (co-host)
So, Jillian, we could really hear you working through some things there and we really admire your bubble-expanding efforts.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Still don’t like him.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Yes, but you may still don’t like him less. Remember, Dr. Israel and previous guests like Peter Coleman of the Difficult Conversations Lab: they both emphasize that toning things down and making connections is a process, not a single, magical moment, it’s not like a game-ending Brady touchdown.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Oh, please. But there was a valid point back there about the process of communication which we’ll discuss further in this next part of the interview, meaning the building of trust, and maybe even eventual compromise. We all compromise in our relationships, our families, our workplaces. Like everyday, all the time. But when it comes to politics, compromise is the dreaded C-word.
[Return to interview]
Tania Israel
I think that politics aren't just about policy: they're about values— they're about identity. That identity piece, I think, is very important. You brought this up before, as it relates to Twitter. And I think that identity is so important to us and a feeling of belonging with a group. And those groups are in some ways really defined by like, where do you stand on this issue and where do you stand in relation to other people? And if we are defining those groups very narrowly, we don't have a lot of room for compromise. It's not even, I think, about compromising on positions. It's just about being respectful of people who have a different view. I think honestly, that's so much more important than how we think about the policies themselves is just being open to people who have another perspective and not demonizing them and not seeing them as immoral and ignorant and extreme and not knowledgeable about the subject.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Yeah, I really want to pick up on some of these threads of how people balance their identity with how they think about policies. The Tom Brady example is a hilarious one to me because I've had this conversation with Rob like four times now. And I cannot articulate why I don't like Tom Brady. Like the answer is that I think of myself as a New Yorker and it just sort of feels— I don't know— it just sort of feels good. It's kind of fun. Like my husband's into it. We have friends who were into it. Like there's nothing, there's clearly nothing behind it. It's clearly just an identity statement. And you mentioned or alluded to all of this research on how many policy ideas and issues people actually do agree on. There's this growing body of research. We work with Dr. Steven Kull at the University of Maryland who's done really interesting research and found dozens and dozens of quite specific policy proposals where a majority of Republicans and Democrats agree. And I guess I'm curious if you see any shortcut to that. Like, how do we scale the kinds of conversations that you're talking about? Can we rely on some of this data and research that's out there to convene conversations or to just basically say to people, “You know, there's actually already a ton of common ground out there. Let us just show it to you.”
Tania Israel
That's such a good question because you know, the policy common ground is— you know, we think sort of ultimately like that's what we would want. We want a country where we can find those areas of common ground and actually act on them rather than getting paralyzed by this polarization. And so yes— on the policy, on the policymaker level— I think that that is something that's important. But what don't we do about, about the rest of us? What do we do about all the other people: the people who are voting— or maybe not voting— because they're disengaging? And I think we need to have those conversations because we need to have those relationships, not just because of politics, but we need those relationships in our lives. That's part of our psychology. That's part of our, you know, knitting together our country, is to have relationships with each other.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
I was surprised when I started doing this work, that I got more pushback from my friends on the left than my friends on the right. So I've talked to a lot of people who have, what I think is a, a fair view, which is, you know, I'm a person of color or I'm an LGBTQ person. Like why is it on me to go have a conversation with somebody who doesn't respect my basic humanity? How would you respond to somebody like that?
Tania Israel
Well, I am an LGBTQ person of color. So I come at it from that perspective. I tweeted out something this week about, you know, we can ignore people who have different views, or we can take it as an opportunity to understand a different perspective. And I have— people have very negative, negative reactions when I say things like that, like “Oh, you could actually talk to, or listen to somebody, who's got a different view.” So I am trying to help people to bridge that gap. And when people say, “But I don't want to have that conversation,” I'm like, “Okay you don't have to do that. But also make sure that you have an accurate perception of those other people and that you have the skills and that those aren't the barriers for you.”
Robert Pease (co-host)
We really enjoyed your TEDx talk and at the very beginning you have, I think, a great explanation of how important motivated reasoning is and that people sometimes are only aware of that in who they're talking to, not in themselves. So we were hoping that you could explain for the benefit of our listeners motivated reasoning and, and how it can be an impediment to real dialogue.
Tania Israel
So we know from psychology research that people tend to focus on information that's consistent with what they already believe and dismiss or ignore information that is inconsistent with what they already think is true. And we all do that. It is part of our psychology, just as human beings. That's what we're going to do. And it's much more likely that we see the ways that other people are doing it then we see the ways that we are doing it ourselves. So people will, you know— confirmation bias is a term that I think people are becoming more familiar with in that way. And people say, “Oh yeah, I can see how those people on the other side are really suffering from confirmation bias.” And I see very few people examining their own beliefs in the context of confirmation bias.
Robert Pease (co-host)
So you have this interesting analogy to weight-training that you can actually exercise your dialogue muscles, and build them up to a point where you can engage in this type of dialogue. So tell us about that training and roughly what period of time and commitment is necessary.
Tania Israel
So, as we think about having these conversations often, like I said, people think about sort of having those very difficult conversations with very extreme people, and sometimes people have those folks in their lives. But what I often say is before you go into that conversation, try out these skills in low-stakes situations— somebody who is just a friend who you're very comfortable with, who you're hanging out with. And they're just telling you about a problem at work that has nothing to do with you, has nothing to do with politics. Try using those active listening skills, try reflecting back what you're hearing from them. And so as you practice those skills— same thing with the skills around managing our emotions— maybe we're looking at Twitter and we notice are our heads starting to explode because we're feeling flushed and our heart rate’s up and our muscles feel tense. Well, try doing some deep breathing, try doing that in a situation where you're not actually like have someone in front of you. And as you build up those skills it's going to get easier for you to do in dialogue. Now, how long is that going to take? Some of that depends. Some people have told me, “Oh, I've already learned some of these skills in my management training,” or “I do non-violent communication” or “I'm a mental health professional.” So some people have already learned a lot of these skills, but are having some trouble applying them to dialogue across political lines. But it also is going to depend on somebody's personality. Some people are naturally better listeners than other people are in terms of their personalities. And some people don't get so charged emotionally about things as other people do.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Oh, great. Well, we'll try to work with Jillian on a weekly basis on her Tom Brady problem. And we'll let you know how things stand.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
I actually think football should be illegal. It’s too dangerous. It should be like dueling.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Anything else, Tania, you'd like to add that we didn't get to?
Tania Israel
I just want to say thank you for the work that you're doing. One of the things that's been so encouraging to me in doing this work is getting connected to all the other people who are engaged in it also. The people, the organizations, the podcast, it's what the media is not focusing on. And so I always like to tell people, “Wow, there's a lot of people who are doing this already and who want to do this.” And so I really think we need to just amplify the kind of work that you're doing and the kind of work that other people are engaged in. That's trying to help people to connect across the divide. I think it's so important for people as individuals and it's so important for our country.
[Exit interview]
Robert Pease (co-host)
That was our very special guest today, Dr. Tania Israel, a psychology professor at UC Santa Barbara, author of the book, Beyond Your Bubble and creator of the flowchart that almost solved political polarization.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
So close! But I do think she may have lessened my affective Brady polarization just a little bit. Like I’m not feeling so compelled to send you articles from the Deflategate scandal.
Robert Pease (co-host)
There you have it. The deflation of Deflategate. And for those who may have forgotten, Tom Brady’s New England Patriots were caught deflating game balls in an AFC championship game a decade ago to make them easier to catch. Which really is a quarterback’s job, when you think about it.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
For which Brady served a four game suspension. Honestly, Rob, you might be the one who needs the workshop. That bubble of yours seems a little soundproof.
Robert Pease (co-host)
You might be right, Jillian. But fortunately we do have two more episodes in our Holiday Survival Kit that— pun intended— we kicked off today with Tania Israel. Next time up, it’s the philosophy of science scholar Lee McIntyre. For his recent book, How to Talk to A Science Denier, he spoke with coal miners about climate denial, organic food shoppers about GMO hysteria, and anti-vaxxers about vaccination...
Lee McIntyre
I read everything I could find about climate deniers and anti-vaxxers and anybody else who had changed their mind. And every single account I read was the same account. They engaged with someone that they trusted, who took the time, was calm, was respectful and worked on them with love and empathy. And then they changed their mind.
Robert Pease (co-host)
We hope you’ll join us then, support us on Patreon as we plan Season 3, connect via social media and review us on Apple Podcasts. It’s your interest and support that keep us going. This has been Robert Pease and Jillian Youngblood for The Purple Principle team.
Alison Byrne, Production & Audience Engagement; Kevin A. Kline, Senior Audio Engineer; Dom Scarlett & Grant Sharratt, Research Associates; Emma Trujillo, Audio Associate. Original music composed and created by Ryan Adair Rooney.
The Purple Principle is a Fluent Knowledge production.