One Golden State, Two Democratic Parties: These Not So United States (CA Part 1)

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June 7, 2022 | Has the California Dream turned in a cost of living nightmare?

“I always point out to people that California is still a two-party state,” says Dan Schnur, USC professor and former independent candidate for Secretary of State. “It just so happens they're both Democratic parties.”

So starts a series of episodes on our largest and bluest of states this primary season. Schnur’s outline of factions within Democratic Party are all the more vital, as are the economic insights of Joel Kotkin, the noted author (Tribes; The Coming of Neo-Feudalism), long-time California resident, and professor at Chapman University. 

“In the past, middle class and working class people trying to improve their lives came to California,” says Kotkin, who feels Texas now offers some of that upward mobility.  “I don't think they come anymore for that.”

Has the California dream given way to a cost of living nightmare? NPR veteran and LA resident Barbara Bogaev co-hosts with Rob Pease for an in-depth discussion on the challenges faced by vast and diverse California as primary voters head to the polls. 

One Golden State, one great co-host; two Democratic parties, two insightful guests, Dan Schnur and Joel Kotkin, on this episode of The Purple Principle. Tune in for episode one of our California series.

Original music by Ryan Adair Rooney. 

SHOW NOTES

Our Guests

Dan Schnur, former GOP strategist and Independent candidate for CA Secretary of State. Professor at UC Berkeley’s Institute of Governmental Studies, Pepperdine University’s Graduate School of Public Policy, and USC’s Annenberg School of Communications. Dan Schnur’s faculty page, Twitter.

Joel Kotkin, Presidential Fellow in Urban Futures and Roger Hobbs Professor in Urban Studies at Chapman University. Author of The Coming of Neo-Feudalism: A Warning to the Global Middle Class. Joel Kotkin’s website, Twitter.

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Transcript

(cold open)

Dan Schnur

I always point out to people that California is still a two-party state. It just so happens that they're both Democratic parties.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

That’s Dan Schnur, a veteran of many California elections as an advisor, a campaign finance reformer, and an Independent candidate himself for the Secretary of State’s office a few elections ago.   

Dan Schnur

I finished behind the two party nominees and a convicted felon. And so, I'm glad I ran for the office. I was able to raise some reform issues, at least one of which was implemented in the California State Senate.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

A lot to learn from Dan Schnur in this episode, the first in our California series. I’m Robert Pease and this is the Purple Principle, a podcast about the perils of polarization. And we have a very special, LA-based guest co-host for these episodes: Barbara Bogaev, veteran NPR host on many great shows, including Fresh Air, as well as To the Point and Press Play from KCRW. Barbara, so great to have you aboard.  

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

Thanks Rob! Thanks for the invitation. And I gotta say, I’m really enjoying talking to some new folks with you, along with some of the usual suspects from the local shows I do. And I’m also looking forward to our upcoming conversations with Leon Panetta and Gustavo Arellano of the L.A. Times.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

Yeah, we’ve been very fortunate on our guest invites. But first Barbara, especially for listeners not in California, what should we have in mind for this episode? And for the whole series?

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

Ah, well you’re gonna have to stop me, I’m gonna go on and on. I don’t think it’s a surprise to anybody that California is no typical state, right? We have to start with the population, it’s nearly 40 million people, more than the whole population of Canada. And, of course, with that many people, you’re so diverse – and we are, ethnically, economically, geographically, spiritually, gastronomically! Here’s another factoid: San Francisco has the most restaurants per household, more than anywhere else in the country. And I mention that because it brings us straight back to income inequality, which is always at the heart of a conversation about California. So many Californians can’t afford those great restaurants. So, I think to sum up: a lot like your Texas series, we’re really discussing the nation of California; it just so happens to be a state.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

It is a huge topic. Which is why we’re fortunate to have the author Joel Kotkin on the show today as well. He’s a long time resident with, shall we say, a critical eye on the economy, geography and demography of California. 

Joel Kotkin

In the past, middle class and working class people trying to improve their lives came to California. I don't think they come anymore for that.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

We’ll hear more from Joel Kotkin in just a bit. But let’s kick things off with Dan Schnur. He’s a former longtime Republican strategist who became an Independent in recent years. We asked about his personal odyssey, but also his take on Kotkin’s observation that California is hardly a model of economic mobility anymore.

[Enter interview]

Dan Schnur

The real danger is that California becomes a place for only the very rich and the very poor and for all sorts of reasons, middle class Californians, particularly those living in Cal in coastal areas have either moved into the eastern part of the state, or across state lines to neighboring states. The city of San Francisco actually has fewer children per capita in the city than any other large city of the United States of America, simply because it is so prohibitively expensive for parents to raise children within the city limits. And that type of affordability challenge is creating a huge problem for this state.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

And what's that huge problem?

Dan Schnur

So, the huge problem of having a state for the very rich and the very poor is of course with the middle class is the economic engine that drives growth and drives job creation. What that means for the state budget is another challenge. We have an extremely progressive income tax system here, in which the state is so reliant on a relatively small number of upper income earners, that when there is an economic downturn, the bottom really does fall out. Which means that government services to those who depend on them, have to be cut very, very dramatically.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Dan, can we talk a little bit more about that affordability crisis? Obviously, California has relatively high tax rates, but there also seems to be, like a housing policy or a housing supply problem. So tell us about the major drivers of the affordability issue.

Dan Schnur

Well, there are a few drivers, but by far the most notable and the most impactful of them is the cost of housing, particularly in coastal areas. But the end result is that we're already seeing a pretty significant flow from coastal to inland California, where working class Californians can find more affordable housing. What that means, to some degree, is that the economic base of the state has changed, but what it's meant even more, ironically, particularly in an area in which we face the tremendous challenge of climate change, is it means more and more Californians are driving further and further in order to get to their jobs. 

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

That's all true, Dan, but is that changing at all in this pandemic and, with hope, post pandemic era? Where more and more people are working from home, and there's a real shift in the way we're thinking about the workplace.

Dan Schnur

No question about it. We have seen a noticeable shift from urban and coastal California into eastern and other less populated areas. I don't think anybody knows yet whether in California or elsewhere, ultimately what the future of remote work is. But we're also seeing a lot of Californians moving to other states into other parts of the country, too. In other words, if you're going to work remotely in Silicon Valley, why not live in Oregon or Utah, or Nevada, or Arizona?

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

I'm so interested in your personal story. If we could look at that right now, you ran for a Secretary of State as an independent in 2014, but I noticed that you switched your registration from Republican to independent three years before that, and were very involved with finance reform. Can you tell us more about that?

Dan Schnur

Sure. The two things you mentioned are pretty unrelated. I switched my party registration in 2011. I had just finished some time as the chairman of the state's Fair Political Practices Commission, the state's campaign watchdog. And when I returned to civilian life, I realized I didn't really have a place in either major party anymore. I tell my students that there's an essential difference between politics and football. I tell them that in politics, the victories come in between the 40-yard lines, and it doesn't matter how smart you are, or how determined you are, or how correct you are. As long as you spend your time on one goal line or the other, you're not gonna get very much done in a democracy. And as I watched both parties retreat further and further from midfield into their respective end zones…parking lots…I don't know what comes after that, but further and further from the place where work can get done…

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

<Laughs> End of the tug of war rope!

Dan Schnur

<laugh> Exactly! I realized I didn't have a place in either party anymore, and switched my registration to what is somewhat pejoratively known in California as a “No Party Preference voter”. A few years later unrelated to that, because I have become a very strong advocate for campaign finance reform, I became the first independent, the first No Party Preference candidate, ever to run for statewide office in the state of California. And there were a few days when I thought I'd make history, but on most days I thought the best I could do is maybe make it easier for the second, No Party Preference candidate to run for statewide office in California.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

<laughs> And we could talk about that. But getting back to those days, you got some pretty hard knocks for it. Did you have a lot of people, or were people advising you against this?

Dan Schnur

Yes. And in fact, people…

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

People who love you, Dan. <laughs>

Dan Schnur

People who I respect in both parties made it very, very clear to me that running as an independent or No Party Preference candidate for an office that most people didn't understand would be almost impossible. And the advice I got - Republicans told me to come back to their party, Democrats told me to complete the switch and come to theirs - I didn't have any interest in running for another office, and didn't have any interest in running as a candidate in either party for an office that I think ought to be a neutral one. I mean, I think that the person who oversees the state's elections should not be a member of one party or the other. So I disregarded that advice, and came up very, very, very short, but had a great time in the process.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

By very short, what was that, like 3% of the vote or something?

Dan Schnur

Hey, be nice!

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

<laughs> 

Dan Schnur

I'll have, you know, I'll have, you know, I got 9% of the vote.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

<laughs> Excuse me, I'm so sorry!

Dan Schnur

And even if it was a very small step forward, I believe I did lay the groundwork for Steve Poizner, who ran as an independent for insurance commissioner four years ago, and achieved roughly 47%, 48% of the vote. And this year we're seeing a No Party Preference candidate, Ann Marie Schubert, running for the state attorney general. 

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

And she's a very interesting candidate, right? She has these deep Republican roots and, you know, on one hand, people are criticizing her for being opportunistic, obviously, but on the other, she's out, she's gay and she's very, liberal on social, pretty liberal on social issues. What do you think her chances are?

Dan Schnur

It's still an uphill fight for her. it's not a coincidence in my opinion, that the Republicans and Democrats in the California state legislature require us to use a very nebulous term of “No Party Preference”, or as it appears on the ballot as “NPP”, no normal person knows what that means!

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

No, everybody shakes their head, they think it's something crazy!

Dan Schnur

As opposed to simply…Because I think they understand that if the designation were “independent,” that that carries a positive connotation with it.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

Yeah. 

Dan Schnur

And if you are a member of one of the two major parties in the state legislature, you don't wanna do anything to create additional competition for your candidates. But Schubert is a fascinating candidate. And I think, although it is an uphill fight for someone outside of the two parties, given how public attitudes in this state, even a deep blue state like California, have changed so dramatically on public safety issues over the last couple of years, I think she does have a reasonable chance.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, Dan, can we talk about the GOP in California, which has, been in the political wilderness, so to speak for a decade or so…

Dan Schnur

Yeah, That won't take long. <laughs> 

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

<laughs> Yeah, we have a nanosecond for that, Robert.

Robert Pease (co-host)

<laughs> Well, there was an effort, which I think lasted two or three nanoseconds, to split from the national GOP and create a separate California GOP. I believe Schwarzenegger might have been involved at some point. And why did that fizzle so quickly?

Dan Schnur

Well, it's a really smart question to ask, because it is worth noting that in other blue states, in Massachusetts and Maryland and Vermont and elsewhere, Republicans have been able to be successful by establishing a different brand than the national party. We see this in the Democratic Party, too. So the question is, why haven't California Republicans been able to establish that different type of identity, the way smart leaders in both parties do in parts of the country where their party is in the minority?

And my own opinion on this, and it's just one person's opinion albeit from a great distance these days, it's been a while since I've been actively involved there, is a lack of will. The more conservative Republicans, whether pro-Trump Republicans or more classic conservatives, like being a big fish in a small pond.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yeah, that's interesting. It is kind of the flip side of some things that are happening in Texas, which we'd like to ask you about, but let's, let's first talk about the California Democratic Party and you talked about some significant factions there. Do they, do they mirror the national factions of, to simplify, progressives and moderates in Washington? Or do they have a kind of unique California perspective?

Dan Schnur

Both. It is a similar dynamic, but with a twist to it. And you do find one party that is more progressive, not just on social and cultural issues, but on economic issues as well. Very, very progressive and very populist on economic issues. But I think primarily because of our state's top two primary, you also in the legislature have what they call themselves “new Democrats.” They called themselves “the mod squad” for a while, before they realized that half-century-old pop culture references really weren't all that helpful.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

<laugh>. They were so out of it!

Robert Pease (co-host)

<laughs> 

Dan Schnur

“23 skidoo,” exactly. But, regardless of what you call them, the state's business interests realizing just how far the Republican Party here had fallen, began to put a lot of time and effort in money into electing Democrats to office under the top two primary who were still very progressive on social and cultural matters, but who were much more pro-business on economic issues. And you really do see that tension existing almost every day in Sacramento, to the point where the California Chamber of Commerce, which every year puts out a list of what they call “job killer bills,” has been able to defeat the overwhelming majority of those “job killer bills” over the last decade or so. On the one hand, because Governor Brown and to a slightly lesser extent, Governor Newsom have been cooperative, but also because there is a cadre of pro-business Democrats who work with them on job creation issues.

Those Democrats generally tend to come from inland California, a lot come from the central valley in the Inland Empire. Interestingly, a lot of them are members of minority communities. And you'll hear a Latino or a Black legislator say, ‘yes, I worry about climate change, but my constituents have to get to work.’ 

[Exit Interview] 

[Ad break]

Robert Pease (co-host) 

We’re back and learning a lot here from Dan Schnur, veteran political strategist and professor at Berkeley, USC and Pepperdine. And Dan made such an important point about those factions within the Democratic Party, because California is one of the very few states with open and unified primaries. 

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)  

Right, and that means Democrats and Republicans are on the same ballot, and then the top two finishers move onto the general election. And in California, with such a weak GOP, you could see a progressive Democrat versus a centrist Democrat in some of these general elections such as the LA mayor’s race and some down ballot statewide races as well.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

As Dan told us, California has two parties. They just both happen to be parts of the Democratic party. And registered Democrats outnumber registered Republicans by two-to-one statewide. 

Barbara Bogaev (co-host) 

And generally the way it breaks down is, and this is no surprise: more progressive Democrats on the coast, more centrist Democrats to the interior. Which is a point we’re about to discuss with our second guest, the rather independent-minded Joel Kotkin. He’s written or co-written some 10 books on a bunch of subjects, everything from the economic vitality of California four decades ago, to what he’s calling the “neo-feudal nature of California today.”

[Enter Interview]

Joel Kotkin

Well, the problem that's happening in California is, when I came here in 1971 we had a two party system. And within that two party system, there were moderate and conservative factions. There was a great deal of debate. And we were usually able to find some sort of ability to make decent policy here in California, based on some degree of rationality. In the last 20 to 30 years, and particularly in the last 10, the state has become essentially a one-party state.  And so now,  what we've seen in California is, in a sense, an amplification of the same polarization you're seeing elsewhere. And it's more institutionalized. And what makes it work, relatively, although I think this is gonna collapse very soon, in many ways, is the enormous amount of money from the tech companies and the enormous increase in the property values. Which has allowed the state to essentially abandon a good part of its economy, but has enough wealth to pay for redistribution on a massive scale. And that's sort of where we've headed: as opposed to sort of trying to create a more diversified economy, we've become increasingly dependent on a small group of people.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

Well, when you talk about some of these significant changes in the last 40 years in California, you always bring up political elitism in this one party rule

Joel Kotkin

Right.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

Is this what you're talking about? Are these all examples of political elitism, or results of it?

Joel Kotkin

Yeah, they are. And one of the odd parts of it is the Republicans made it possible. One, by passing 187, which meant for a long time, although this may be changing a bit now, we lost the Hispanic population, just became one party. They had been…

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

And, you're talking about Prop 187, and for our listeners who aren't

Joel Kotkin

Oh yeah, 187 was an attempt to essentially limit public services to the undocumented. And that included things like schools and hospitals. And so, it alienated a lot of people, not surprisingly! So that helped create the one-party system. The other part that created the one-party system was an idiot move by conservatives to have term limits.

Now, at first it sounded like a good idea. But what happened is you lost representatives who were from their district and they represented interest groups. And today in California, the green nonprofits, the real estate interests, and the tech guys basically call the shots. And, the other really powerful group is the public employee unions, who are…You know, I was talking to somebody I know who was in the legislature and she said to me - she was a Democrat - she said, when we have education bills, my members would look at their phones to see what the lobbyists tell them what to do. And that's, you're talking about the, the, the demoralization of…<laugh>

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

Well, California is not alone in that. <laugh>

Joel Kotkin

<laugh> No, no, except that, see, but the thing is, if you have a two-party system, at least you know, there's *some* degree of accommodation. And it's sort of become winner-take-all politics, you know, either you run as a far left progressive, or as a far right Republican. And moderates are hard to find.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yeah. Well, moderates are hard to find everywhere.

Joel Kotkin

Right.

Robert Pease (co-host)

We've been doing this, you know, series on state level polarization. We would like to play you something from that series. This is the author and New Yorker writer, Lawrence Wright, on Californians moving to Texas. And then we'll ask for your comments on it.

Joel Kotkin

Sure.

Lawrence Wright (lookback audio)

It's stunning to me with all the people moving to Texas that our unemployment rate stays so low, and that's because jobs are being created faster than people are moving here. And a lot of those jobs are, you know, immigrants from California…I was talking to an entrepreneur, one of the tech guys who's moved from the Bay Area and a very successful Silicon Valley creator. And he said, ‘you know, we failed California, we failed San Francisco. And I just hope we don't do the same thing in Texas.’

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yeah. So again, that was Lawrence Wright, who we interviewed recently. And there's a lot of ironies there because, you know, Governor Abbott in Texas has a slogan ‘Don't California my Texas,” and yet they're trying to attract all these California companies to Texas. 

Joel Kotkin

Well, you know, of course I'm affiliated both with one think tank in California and one in Houston. So, you know, I've traveled a great deal between the two. Basically, what Texas is trying to do in some senses is to replace the role California used to play. California was where you went if you were young, aggressive, trying to create a new future, but you weren't really established. And that's really who's now coming to Texas.

The California that I went to was a California where no - you know, particularly Los Angeles -  nobody gave a damn where you went to college. Nobody. It wasn't a heavily credentialed place. People started grassroots businesses. Some of them did really well. Some of them didn't.

That is now what I see in Houston and Dallas, in Austin, in San Antonio, that kind of spirit. Now, California in my mind is always going to be the best place to be, in terms of weather, in terms of topography. It has a certain specialness. But I think for the younger people, what we notice, this is the most important thing: the in-migration to California has dropped to nearly the bottom of all the states.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

What is your data telling you about why people are moving? Because you always have corporations moving out because of high taxes, and that's one thing. And then you have these young families moving out, primarily because of the high cost of living and housing. Is that right?

Joel Kotkin

Right. That's exactly right. When you ask people why they're leaving, the biggest thing seems to be housing. Housing is about 85% of the difference in cost between one region and another. 

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

And so close the loop on this conversation, back to polarization, is that what you're tracing these trends back from? Do you put this all at the feet of one party rule?

Joel Kotkin

No, I wouldn't put all of it. I think there's a lot of things. I think one party rule makes it worse. Having policies where you can't essentially build single family homes and suburbs, which is exactly what middle class people want. If you can't do that, then you end up, either those people either leave, or they just become lifetime renters and they're generally not very happy about it. <laughs> 

Robert Pease (co-host) 

Yeah. Well, if you don't mind, let's talk a little bit more about housing policy. We'd like to play a clip from Dr. Ryan Enos of Harvard University, who happens to be from California. He's a political geographer who studies polarization nationwide:

Ryan Enos (lookback audio) 

In many ways, you could think of it as kind of natural that Democrats are living in cities and Republicans are living in rural areas, especially as wealth is concentrated increasingly among Democrats, and cities are hard to live in. And frankly, this is sort of the fault of liberals in places like I live like in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and other high-income cities where there's just not enough dense housing. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

So Dr. Enos is not talking about California specifically, but we wonder if you recognize any of the same problems there…

Joel Kotkin

It's the same, it's the same nonsense that you hear from academics in general. First of all, people don't want density! I don't know what you have, how many surveys and behavior patterns you, you need to show that, that people don't want…you know, human beings and families are not little chess pieces that can be moved around to try to prove an academic theory! So, first of all, a) people don't really want density, particularly under the age 30. Younger, yes… 

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

Hold on a second. <laughs> Then what do you attribute this push in cities like Los Angeles towards greater density, and towards developing better, more sustainable models for building that, because there is a great effort! And so far to mitigate urban sprawl, is this yet another example in your eyes of misguided, elitist public policy?

Joel Kotkin

It's just, it's just not working! <laughs>. I mean, at very least, the vast majority of the housing that's being built is very expensive. I know, ‘cause I ask my students ‘how much are you paying?’ and they’re paying more for their rent than I’m paying for my mortgage, okay? Second of all, if it was working, why are people leaving? L.A.'s population has declined. California's population has declined. People, where are they moving the move? The only place they're really moving in large numbers is Riverside county, not exactly a dense, urban place. 

Robert Pease (co-host)

Well, let's talk about one of the big themes in your recent writing, and we assume in your forthcoming book, which is income inequality, the end of the middle class, the concentration of political and economic power you're calling “neo-feudalism.” So first question, can you help us understand neo-feudalism, who are the overlords, who are the serfs, and what could be done about this, policy-wise?

Joel Kotkin

Well, I call neo-feudalism, not expect people to be out there with chainmail, with huge broadswords. I don't think that's gonna happen, it'll happen on TV but it won't happen in reality. What it is is, one of the great parallels with the medieval era is the concentration of wealth and power that came from the collapse of an old system. That's what happened, basically the strongest barbarians inherited what was left of the Roman Empire. And just like, in a funny way, the Internet guys, there was something happening. Anybody who had a quarter of a brain knew something was happening, but they had the, you know, the moxie to go after it. And they were able to raise the money. And now they have unprecedented degrees of power that we haven't seen in at least a century.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

What does putting it in this neo-feudal, or this feudal framework do for us, our understanding?

Joel Kotkin

Well, what it does is, it creates what is a very great danger, which is this notion that people cannot hope to ascend to a higher class. Other words, the working class person, let’s say like, you think about the Detroit auto worker. Who maybe didn't even graduate from high school, but worked hard, joined a union, got a good job, bought a house. That path is increasingly hard to find.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

So how are people responding to this idea of a neo-feudal California?

Joel Kotkin

I think people have gotten very, very aware of this. And I keep trying to say, look, this is not a right or left issue. I never used the language of, you know, “Liberty” and all that. I mean, I'm not against Liberty obviously, but to put things in an ideological context doesn't make sense for most people., and it just sounds like rhetoric. I find people who are really concerned about, you know, particularly small, locally owned, non-public businesses. And they are really worried and they're worried, not just for them and themselves and their families, but their employees. I can't tell you how many times I'll hear somebody say, you know, I had to, I was expanding, I would've loved to expand in California, but from a business point of view, I had to go to Arizona or Nevada.

But I also think that there is a sense, among those of us who are still in California, that it can be turned around, that it has enormous potential. And I'm very encouraged. The other thing I'm very encouraged by is the tremendous presence of both female and particularly Hispanic entrepreneurs. So, I think California's not a lost cause like many conservatives think.

Robert Pease (co-host)

Yeah. Well, Joel, we'd like to play one more clip from our Texas series. We spoke to Dr. Henry Cisneros about one-party rule in Texas. He's talking here about young, Hispanic business owners  and how they really have very little choice but to become Republicans if they want to get ahead in Texas. 

Dr. Henry Cisneros (lookback audio)

If you were a young, Hispanic in business and you wanted to progress in your community, you're gonna relate to the people who are in power. And if all the appointments at the state level to serve on boards and commissions, if all of the invitations to you as a member of a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce are to be with like-minded business people, and they're all Republicans, then at some point you say to yourself, ‘well, maybe that's where I should be if I want to advance.’ And that is an immense advantage of controlling all of the levers of power. 

Robert Pease (co-host) 

So, we wondered if kind of the mirror image of that is happening in California?

Joel Kotkin

Well of course, Henry is, you know, very much right about what's going on in Texas. What Henry's talking about is a Republican culture that celebrates small business, and where that Hispanic, young entrepreneur has 20 other Hispanic young entrepreneurs who are doing the same thing.

But one other thing that's interesting about Texas is even though the state is controlled by Republicans, most of the cities are controlled by Democrats. Now, what I disagree with is when the Republican state says, ‘oh, you can't have this law, that law.’ You know, if Austin wants to pass something stupid, let them do it and we'll see how it works. you know, I think this idea of either the right or the left, controlling everything on the local level is completely contrary to the, the basic principles of (what) the country was founded on. And that bothers me, whether it's coming from the right or the left.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

And doesn’t it speak to the issue in California, which is it’s so big and so diverse, it really depends on what city and where we're talking about? What local government we're talking about in California, in terms of opportunities for, for people of color and Latinos?

Joel Kotkin

Well, right.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host)

And it brings up again, that whole issue of whether California will “rupture,” as it occasionally pops up, people say, ‘oh, it's awkward, it's too big, ungovernable, can't sustain it.’

Joel Kotkin

Well, this is the sad thing. Hispanics, African Americans do much better in, in the red states than the blue states. That's generally the case. I mean, what's so funny is we have people who will talk endlessly about people of color, but I think they must be thinking about people of color who have PhDs from Stanford, ‘cause they're not certainly talking about most people. If you look at incomes and adjust for cost, African Americans actually do slightly better in Mississippi than they do in California. Okay? That's not working. I mean, that's the sad thing.

And actually, where are Hispanics and African Americans moving in California? Into the interior, into what's left of the red districts! I mean, that's what's so interesting is, that the very places that are obsessed with racial inequality actually promote more racial inequality. What we really need, I think, is some sort of melding of some good progressive ideas with some good market-based ideas. But the problem is how do you build a pragmatic politics that works for most people in this environment? And I think it's very difficult.

[Exit Interview] 


Robert Pease (co-host) 

Pragmatic politics. A melding of progressive and market-based ideas. We did not see much of that in our series on pretty deep red Texas, which is so dominated by those GOP primaries for 2 decades now.

Barbara Bogaev (co-host) 

Kotkin is so interesting talking about the conflict between the progressive and market-based ideas. I guess I don't really see them as opposed or even separate categories, Rob. But it is true that maybe California has a better shot at this, at least that’s been my feeling, living and reporting here. And I think it’s because California prides itself on being a fluid place. And it is so fluid that it’s forced to address new problems, to reinvent itself, and even to meld the progressive and the pragmatic at times. As challenging as that seems. 

Robert Pease (co-host) 

That would be quite an accomplishment. More to come on that subject in this California series, including with the uniquely experienced Leon Panetta: former Secretary of Defense, CIA Director, White House Chief of Staff. Before all of those high level national positions, Leon Panetta was a nine-term U.S. House member from northern California. 

Leon Panetta (look ahead audio)

I've seen Washington work where Republicans and Democrats were willing to work together on major issues. And I think the same thing was true for California. But in recent years it's become increasingly partisan, increasingly divided. Because of that division, a lot of the critical problems in California really are not being addressed in a bipartisan way. I mean, there are Democratic solutions, but they tend not to be built on a foundation that really includes all viewpoints. And I think we pay a price when that's the case.

Robert Pease (co-host) 

We’ll hope you’ll join us for these California episodes throughout the month of June. Coming up next before our episode with Leon Panetta, we’ll be talking with the L.A. Times columnist and podcast host Gustavo Arellano. He’ll help us understand the issues behind the California primary results, with a look ahead to the November general elections.

If you’re getting some insight from this podcast, please share it with a like-minded friend or two, and support us on Patreon or Apple Subscriptions. Thanks for listening in, from all of us on the team here, including resident composer Ryan Adair Rooney. The Purple Principle is Fluent Knowledge production.

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