Hollywood Presidents for a Partisan Nation (Part 3): Hail the Flip-Flopping Egomania of Veep
October 19th 2021
HBO’s Veep, starring Julia Louis Dreyfuss, is quite likely the most successful American political satire in television history. Yet, in seven seasons, the show never mentions the party labels “Democrat” or “Republican,” instead using terms like “the enemy camp” or, more pointedly, “my extremist colleague from across the aisle.”
In “Hollywood Presidents for a Partisan Nation (Part Three),” The Purple Principle speaks with Veep showrunner and head writer, David Mandel, about this convention and the many challenges to creating satire at a time when real world political norms are shattered week after week.
David Mandel took over the showrunner role from creator Armando Ianucci, who adapted his British show, The Thick of It, into the equally foul-mouthed but distinctly American, Veep. Mandel then led the show for its final three seasons, winning an Emmy for Best Comedy Series in two of those three years.
As a result, it was no easy decision to end Veep with Season 7. But, in our TPP interview, Mandel confides they could no longer compete with the writers of a show called Trump. We spoke to him about that decision, as well as his favorite episodes, lines, and memorabilia from the Veep catalog.
Mandel himself is a blue ribbon comedy A-lister, having written for SNL, Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and the occasional Simpsons episode prior to the Veep showrunner role. In this interview, he describes some of his early and enduring influences which range from major comic role models like Steve Martin and David Letterman to the prize-winning Lyndon Johnson biographer, Robert Caro.
Veep protagonist, Selina Meyer, was “a horrible person...who was also a politician,” Mandel explains, looking back over this remarkable run. “That doesn’t mean that the writers… were endorsing the offensive things she was saying.”
He then adds, with a hint of frustration, “But some people feel, in terms of comedy, that you can’t say anything offensive, even in jest.”
Fortunately, a large, still loyal audience appreciates the satirical brilliance of Veep—sharp, topical writing and pitch-perfect performances from a true ensemble cast. Tune into “Hollywood Presidents for a Partisan Nation (Part Three)” for more on the show’s enduring appeal from Hollywood comedy writer extraordinaire, David Mandel.
Original Music by Ryan Adair Rooney
Show Notes
Our Guest
David Mandel, writer and producer for HBO’s Emmy-winning political satire Veep
Follow him on Twitter: @DavidHMandel
Additional Resources
Funny Because It's True, Harvard Magazine
Robert Caro '53 Awards Prize for Literary Excellence in the Writing of History at Horace Mann School
David Mandel '88: a career in comedy, The Record
Armando Iannucci, Rotten Tomatoes
WATCH: Trump asks what to do about migrants crossing border. Rallygoer suggests 'shoot them', PBS
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Transcript
David Mandel
The idea that we would have had a regular episode of Veep airing while— I'm just making this up— like the insurrection was going on, our show would have seemed like, “Well, why don't we just take these episodes and throw them in the garbage?” like there's no point in airing.
Robert Pease (co-host)
That’s David Mandel, head writer and showrunner of the iconic HBO satire, Veep, starring Julia Louis-Dreyfus as the uber-egotistical vice president, then president, then former president campaigning for the presidency, Selina Meyer.
David Mandel
So on the one hand you can't compete; like your show just seems awful. That being said— in the wake of all of it— I wish I were doing the show right now and could be doing our own versions now a little bit after the fact of all of that stuff.
Robert Pease (co-host)
To the many criticisms of the Trump administration, let’s add the premature demise of Veep. I’m Robert Pease, and this is the Purple Principle, a podcast about the perils of political and cultural polarization.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
And I’m co-host Jillian Youngblood. Rob, I can’t believe how lucky we are to be discussing perhaps my favorite show of all time, Veep, with a comedy all-star like David Mandel. He has written for literally a pantheon of television comedies over the past three decades.
Robert Pease (co-host)
I hate to say this to a Jets fan, Jillian, but isn’t he kind of like the Tom Brady of TV comedy?
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Or some might say the LeBron James of TV comedy.
Robert Pease (co-host)
But whatever team Mandel is on, he racks up the big laugh points. And David’s no stranger to politics either, having studied government at some school called Harvard and worked at Saturday Night Live under Al Franken many years before landing the Veep showrunner role.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
David Mandel has written for not only SNL, and Seinfeld, and Curb Your Enthusiasm, and, of course, Veep but also the occasional Simpsons episode.
Robert Pease (co-host)
An impressive list. So we’re dying to know more about David’s’s formative years and influences. Not surprisingly, he mentions some great comedians.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
But also a great love of comic books and tremendous respect for the prize-winning Lyndon Johnson biographer, Robert Caro.
David Mandel
I actually grew up in New York City, on 70th and West End, right in Manhattan. So I was an Upper West Side kid for my— I like to still think I am, but I guess I'm not— but yeah, New York.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
What are some of your biggest influences in terms of what are your favorite shows, movies, books…?
David Mandel
Sure. You know, it's funny: when I was growing up actually in New York City, the independent station, Channel 11 WPIX, they used to at 11:00 PM— I was always a late night kid— 11 o’clock PM they had The Odd Couple and at 11:30 they had The Honeymooners. So those are both, those were huge, defining sort of comedy influences for me (the ones that always jumped out at me) and I loved everything. I watched everything, but the ones that jumped out at me were the ones that were different: St. Elsewhere and Moonlighting. I learned so much from those, especially those first three seasons of Moonlighting. Movies—it wasn't always comedy— I mean, I just loved movies. My mom was a big moviegoer. I can remember her on the Upper West Side, taking me to revival theaters, and seeing like Hitchcock and stuff. I'm a big comic book reader, so that's in there somewhere as well. My mom also had a big comedy album collection. So I mean— I can even remember— I still have her Mort Sahl albums. And I know I'm not supposed to say it, but the Woody Allen standup comic album is still great, regardless, I guess. So wherever that fits in. Yeah. But you know: the standup stuff, Steve Martin (wild and crazy guy), the early Saturday Night Live stuff, Letterman was a huge influence.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Yeah. So the Upper West Side— I don't know— probably has some of the highest voter turnout— I would guess— in the country. [It’s a] really politically engaged place to grow up.
David Mandel
Very politically engaged— and very annoying. But go on...
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
And perhaps annoying in the best way? Were you always interested in politics?
David Mandel
I definitely was interested in politics. I was always very interested in history. I had a little mini-collection of political buttons and stuff. I've always been a reader of biographies, basically like presidential biographies, presidential autobiographies, those kinds of things. You know, I live and die at the feet of Robert Caro. He actually went to my high school (we were in different classes obviously) so I got introduced to The Power Broker senior year of high school. And all of those things were definitely a part of me. I was a government major in college, so definitely politics was always very important. I will say, getting the Veep job took me to another level. And then I will say this— in the most non-partisan way I humanly can— as the world seemed to turn to shit about 15, 16 years ago, I definitely engaged more. And obviously that's an opinion of the shit. But it definitely caused an engagement that somewhat maxed out and coincided with the Veep job. Those things sort of, kind of came together in a way for me that got me extra engaged, I guess, or on a different level than I feel like I am now, as opposed to where I was. Now I'm one of the annoying people. So, yeah.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
So knowing what you know now from that, or from your Veep experience, have you ever considered running for office yourself?
David Mandel
I probably think there are at least 500 tweets of mine that would prevent that from happening. So, Al Franken, former Senator— and obviously people have their opinions of that as well— was my mentor. He hired me at Saturday Night Live, and I remember in the early days of his campaigning, watching dummies take comedy out of context and read it back as part of the record. And it's a very hard thing to do, sort of to let like a dumb person basically repeat comedy without irony and all of those things. So I do believe humor for the masses is a problem. You know, one of the beautiful things about Veep was it was on HBO where you had to sort of want to watch it, perhaps more so than had it been— not that it could have been on NBC at 9:00 PM— but I think NBC at 9:00 PM, besides the language— the opinions, and sort of a lot of the viewpoint— probably would have been a lot more problematic because Selina was a horrible person and she was offensive. And yet she was also a politician and you had to let her be offensive to show how horrible she was, which didn't necessarily mean I— as the writer or one of the writers— was endorsing the offensive things she was saying. But some people, I guess, feel— in terms of comedy— that you can't say anything that's offensive, even in jest.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
So you're not running for city council?...
David Mandel
Not running for city council, not running for city council. Although it'd be, it's a heck of a job. The LA city council has a lot of power.
Robert Pease (co-host)
That’s David Mandel, comedy writer extraordinaire, and— you heard it here first on The Purple Principle— he’s officially not a candidate for the LA city council.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Or any political office, so long as his tweets stay on the record.
Robert Pease (co-host)
But he is one of the great satirists of our time, social and political, and was the guiding force of Veep in its final three seasons.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
There are so many great elements to Veep. It’s got these fast-paced plots, topical writing, obviously superb acting—not only by Julia Louis-Dreyfus— but by the whole cast.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Veep adapted a norm-busting, original concept from the British show The Thick of It. Without mentioning political parties, the show skewered lower level British cabinet ministers, their obsessions with media coverage, and positions not far from— but not close enough to— actual power.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
The saying goes that, “The US and the UK are two countries separated by a common language.” But the US adaptation of The Thick of It was equally foul-mouthed and also directed at political culture. Veep then added the American elements of perpetual campaigning, fundraising, and flip flopping.
Robert Pease (co-host)
As with the major British party names— Conservative, and Labour, and Liberal Democratic— the US parties— Republican and Democrat— are never mentioned on Veep. But there is frequent (if veiled) reference to political parties, especially that other party…
[Archival Audio, Veep]
Voice 1: Madam President, my extremist colleagues on the other side of the aisle...
Voice 2: We’re not going to name someone from the opposite party to the Supreme...
Voice 3: I could force the party to make some tweets...
Voice 4: I have a useful college friend in the enemy camp...
Robert Pease (co-host)
Now that we know a bit about David Mandel and the British origins of Veep, let’s dig into the production of the show, starting with an explanation of David Mandel’s showrunner role.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
That’s showrunner— not Blade Runner. Still— way more substantial than it sounds.
David Mandel
Sure. The showrunner— which is a term that seems to have come more into fashion— that's just another way of saying “the head writer.” But it is more than that in that you are the head writer, [but] you are [also] in charge of the creative vision of the show. And so you may not direct every episode, but the directors are reporting to you. You are sitting next to the director. You may not personally edit every episode, although you might, but you are the one approving like, “That is the show we are sending out to the network.” I am definitely a very hands-on person. So I am always sitting next to the director— if I'm not directing myself— and I am doing the edits myself. And so that's the easiest way to explain what a showrunner is on a TV show. On a movie, it's more sort of the director is in charge and, in television, the writer is in charge.
Robert Pease (co-host)
So you've also been involved with many iconic shows. Were there jokes that you wanted to do at Seinfeld or Curb Your Enthusiasm that were deemed too political or too partisan?
David Mandel
Do you remember for a long time, especially when you ordered from Amazon, everything came sealed in those plastic kind of cases that were really impossible to open. And we did a kind of a run on that where Susie gave Larry a gift, but he couldn't get it out of the plastic. And I remember doing this joke where we did a thing where she said, “You need a box cutter.” And Larry said, “A box cutter, who am I Mohammad Atta?” And when we did that moment, that joke, I remember just being really proud feeling like “Curb Your Enthusiasm right now...”— whatever that date was— “...is the only show on television that is going to do a Mohammed Atta joke about box cutters.”
Robert Pease (co-host)
Yeah. We've actually had a couple of standup comedians on the show Myq Kaplan and Shane Mauss. And we asked them, “Has it become more difficult— over the past two decades— touring around the country and doing stand-up in a polarized climate?”
David Mandel
I think any extreme is bad. And so I think the far ends of the spectrum on either side are problematic. I can't imagine touring around. I mean, I would have to think you have to change your act from city to city, town to town, but also you don't really know who's going to be in your audience on any given night. And people just seem so quick to sort of want to complain. I've heard stories from people who just won't do colleges anymore, because it's just impossible. And that's probably more of an example of— in some ways— the hyper-woke left, where they just don't want to laugh at certain things or feel like you shouldn't. I have a general problem with that just across the board.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Well, unfortunately our Veep T-shirts did not arrive in time. So apologies for that. But we're very curious about your memorabilia collection and we wonder if you could tell us about a few of the Veep items that you might have in there...
David Mandel
Sure. I'm a collector by nature, so I have been a collector of many, many things since I was a kid. And over the last 20 years or so, I have a very big collection of original TV, movie, and memorabilia stuff: stuff from Star Wars, all sorts of big genre movies, and whatnot. And so when obviously working on Veep, it was sort of an opportunity to kind of pick and choose and keep the things that I wanted to. So I have any kind of cool campaign stuff that we did, like, you know, actual buttons, actual posters, shirts, that kind of stuff, which was very, very fun. But probably the best thing I have is actually the dubonnet lipstick from the final episode, which was the thing that Gary puts on her coffin at the very end (basically the finale).
Gary
You’d hate the flowers. But I...I brought the dubonnet.
David Mandel
Ironically, it was the one thing that they gave away while I finished the show. I finished editing, took a trip with my family, and— while I was gone— I had forgotten to ask for it. And they gave all these props away to an auction house. And I had to bid on the lipstick and win it to get it back basically and paid an insane amount of money to win back: my lipstick that I wrote, made up, and picked the prop, and I had to win it back.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Bidding on the lipstick sounds like something that Gary would do.
David Mandel
Yes. Exactly. He had to get it back for her.
Robert Pease (co-host)
By avoiding party labels, and satirizing our zero sum political culture, Veep was beloved by a wide range of Americans with huge ratings for a foul-mouthed cable series. And that’s important, that’s healthy, even if done primarily for audience ratings.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Yeah, shared culture is essential in a democracy. And Veep was part of our shared culture. It seems like very few shows with political content can achieve that in our polarized age.
Robert Pease (co-host)
It was also widely respected by other Hollywood creatorsl, such as David Guggenheim. He avoided the “party label trap” by creating the ABC drama Designated Survivor around an independent president played by Keifer Sutherland. And David’s genuine respect for Veep came out in our previous episode...
David Guggenheim
Veep wasn't so much about the issues; it wasn't an issue-oriented show. It was more about her and her staff and it was very character-driven. And her whole thing was that she was flip-flopping on everything. So it didn't really matter really what side of an issue she was on. So, I mean, you won't catch me saying anything bad about that show. I think it was the most brilliant political satire on television we've had, I think probably ever.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Veep was also working to stay edgy in a fast-moving political environment— from the Obama to Trump presidencies— and keeping up in an ever-changing media landscape. We asked David Mandel about the evolution of the show over its 7-year run: from 2012 to 2019. In other words, an eternity in American politics.
David Mandel
The show was created by Armando Iannucci. I did not create it. I took over the show after he left, which I always like to point out to the world. And so I give him a tremendous amount of credit for creating these very archetypes you're talking about. And so the show became a very different thing over the course of it. And in some ways it seems quite quaint: the idea of somebody who acts one way and then behind closed doors is very different. And obviously our— what's the word I'm looking for— our standards of what a candidate should and shouldn't say when they are in public have so radically changed over the last 10-plus years that sometimes the early days of Veep seemed like another era. My first season of Veep, we did a joke about Selina accidentally tweeting something, and it was a whole to-do. And of course it now seems like I'm doing a joke about the telegraph.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
So I was curious if you were setting Veep sometime in the future or was it intended to be kind of this alternate universe…?
David Mandel
It started off as an alternate universe. I think we said something along the lines of, “We never mentioned a president after Reagan.” So it was the idea that like up till Reagan-Bush, it was America as we know it, but then different people got elected president after that. And things still happens, so 9/11 happened, the Iraq War happened. So we were still referencing things that happened. And so to us, it was always the present day. And we obviously were always both referencing real things and then obviously doing our versions of stuff. So for example, we did this— when Armando left the show, he did the much-written-about— but never happened— Electoral College tie. And that's where I picked up the show. And then— as part of unraveling the Electoral College tie— I did our version of a Florida story where we did it in Nevada, where it was all about if they could get Nevada to flip, then she could win. So we kind of did our version of missing ballots and politicized counting and “who did this ballot vote for?”, and all of that kind of stuff, which at the time was years after Florida, but it was again our version of it.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
I just watched some of those episodes actually. One thing about this show is that every actor is pitch perfect, from top to bottom, in every single role. And I'm curious, when you had a sense that Julia Louis-Dreyfus, for example, was just perfect for this role and surrounded by these other people who are also perfect for their roles?
David Mandel
I was lucky enough that Julia and I worked on Seinfeld together. So I knew from Day 1, just how incredible she was. And so as a fan watching Veep, the show that was put together, it was such a perfect ensemble. And so for me— when I got the opportunity to kind of jump in there— it was kind of a mix of keeping them all on that same level and finding good stuff for all of them. And then obviously as, over the years, we started to add a couple of additional people to it and did things like we made Richard Splett more important under my watch.
Selina
Richard I mean, really seriously: you're one of the good ones.
Richard
Well, thank you, Madam President.
Selina
I mean, if I had had a hundred Richards, who knows what I could have done?
Richard
I mean, probably a lot. Or it could turn out like one of those Twilight Zone scenarios where we all murder each other.
David Mandel
I think Catherine kind of changed and had a bigger story under my watch.
Catherine
I've met someone. And I know that this is awkward because you work with them, but we're in love.
Selina
Who?
Catherine
Me and Marjorie.
Selina
Who?
Marjorie
Me, ma'am.
Selina
...What?
David Mandel
And so trying to add these additional people into the mix, but keep it all on that same level of, I don't know, I'll say perfection because the people we added, we didn't add them lightly. And it was just a, you don't want to ruin the confection that is that ensemble. It was just so good top to bottom.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Do you have any favorite episodes or scenes or lines that are really memorable to you?
David Mandel
You know, I love different episodes at different times. I'm really proud of that finale, for a thousand different ways. And so I love it. Catherine's documentary episode was another one that was a real favorite. There was a joke we tried forever to jam in and finally got it in, which was Selina’s in the final season. They're interviewing somebody and she goes, “I've got a question for the New York times. Why do they write so much about modern dance?” or something like that. And things like that make me laugh so much. And I love the character stuff. I do think there are things I was thinking about the other day, like Anna's character, Amy, trying to flirt and it bothering all the other characters. One— not even a line— but it's like Selina yelling at her daughter about she's “not old” and she says something about her neck. And Gary just makes a noise where he is like, “Mmmm…” And you just realize like, “Oh, he thinks she needs like a neck job.” And it's those things that I do love. But yes: nothing but good thoughts and memories of the show.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
As someone who has written a lot of speeches, I really enjoy “Take immigration out of this.”
Leon
The voters need to know clearly and definitively why you want to be president.
Voice 2
In your own words.
Selina
If you want me to use my own goddamned words then write me something to say, okay?
Leon
Yes Ma'am.
Selina
Oh, and take out the stuff about immigration, because I feel like it's a little too issue-y.
Leon
Okay.
David Mandel
I do think that's one of my favorite parts of the show: attempting to have these characters deliver speeches that say nothing. There was one that I really remember. It was our version of when she kind of reannounces that she's gonna run again. And she basically pledges to go on her version of a Hillary Clinton listening tour. But if you listen to what she's saying, basically, she's just naming places where people go for political fundraisers. And so it's her just going, “I will travel from Silicon Valley to Palo Alto from New York City to the Hamptons...” I miss the show so much because it's an opportunity both to do those jokes, but also— how does one say it?— to call out the hypocrisy of all politics— not just the left or the right— which I do love.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Yeah. So, for the benefit of perhaps our independent or unaffiliated voter listeners, we were wondering was there any discussion of referring to independents, or having characters who are independents, to avoid the party labels?
David Mandel
I do think we talked about independent jokes. And to some extent I remember talking about a sort of a runner of Selina just really hating the idea of independents. Like it's one thing if you're on the other party and not voting for her. But the idea that generally she was frustrated by the idea of somebody— in her mind— who couldn't make up their mind. So she did not necessarily see the benefit of being an independent: the idea of “I'm not liking either of these parties” or “I'm liking parts of these things and I want to take my own tack.” She kind of hated them. And so that was our funny sort of take on it.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Yeah. So we wanted to make sure we have it right, that you took over as showrunner, David, was it during the summer of the 2016 election cycle?
David Mandel
I took over with season four— no, sorry— [Iannucci] did season four. I did season five and it was at the beginning of season six, while we were filming our second or third episode of season six— which is the Georgia episode— Selina is no longer president. She goes over to the Republic of Georgia to supervise a free election (as former politicians often do.) And on that night that we were shooting that episode and that was [when] Donald Trump won the election that night.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Yeah. So at that point, did you feel like, “Maybe Armando Iannucci set me up for this? He saw Trump was going to win and he didn't want to deal with this?”
David Mandel
I remember the morning of the election, we got a call from one of our people, but just basically going “Hillary is going to win and these are the numbers.” And of course it just sort of showed you that no one knew anything, I guess, as the saying goes. But when it initially happened— because Selina wasn't president of the United States in our show (she was at that point, former president of the United States)— it didn't seem that terrible. It felt terrible for— in my opinion— the United States of America. But I will simply say, it did not seem, at that point, to be affecting our show as much as it could have. And as that stuff changed, I was initially very, very happy that we were not doing press conference briefings with Mike and having those have to play against Sean Spicer, just to pick an example, because it just seemed like they were doing their own episodes of Veep, basically. The public screw-ups— the non-answers, the evasion, all of that stuff— it just started to seem like they were trying to outdo us in a very sort of sad, but funny, way. As we then got her back into politics, it became much more of a problem because politics had changed so much and it really changed the back end: the final season of the show. When we shut down for a couple of months (when Julia was recovering—thank God— from breast cancer) as again— in my opinion— things started to get even darker perhaps than what Veep was doing. It changed the direction of the show. And if you watch that final season, Selina is a darker, more horrible character. She'd always been horrible, but we felt the need— I felt the need as the showrunner— to push it into this other realm because of what was going on in Washington, D.C.
Robert Pease (co-host)
We were wondering about the character of Jonah. If someone had casually watched season one or two, they probably wouldn't have predicted this is going to be a major character [by] season five or six. Obviously a great comedic actor and great writing, but was it not also the spread of populism and the Trump story that kind of elevated Jonah's character?
David Mandel
It definitely did, but you know it's funny: it started just basically from a writing standpoint. Obviously, Tim Simons is absolutely hilarious as Jonah and was a character that people loved; people loved how annoying he was. But the honest answer is that when we first wanted to elevate him to being a congressman, the reason was we were resolving the episode— resolving the storyline— about the Electoral College tie. And in resolving the Electoral College tie, we knew that initially it was going to go into the House. So how do you solve that from just a writing standpoint? Well, what if we make one of our characters a congressman, and then one of them is actually voting. I also think there is a— how does one say— lovable, a lovely low-rentness to it tp a lot of congressmen— when you're talking about 430 (whatever it is) of them— with many of them sleeping in their offices to save rent, money and whatnot. And that element of...there's a used car dealer kind of mentality to a lot of Congress people— in my own opinion— unfortunately. So it sort of seemed perfect and in a perfect way like, “Oh, he'll know nothing and be a congressman.” This fits in with our jaundiced view of Congress. And then, once we were in there, we were then able to go further and kind of do our version of the Tea Party when he creates The Jeffersons, which— of course he doesn't remember the name of the show— [he] names them after Thomas Jefferson. And again, at the time, these were all jokes— fighting to end daylight savings time— which of course is now an actual issue in the United States of America (God help us all). And then— I will not lie— the notion of Trump showing that anybody could be president, it went sort of that one step further of “Let's run Jonah for president.”
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Okay. I just want to say really quickly though, that I would vote for any third party candidate who pledged to end daylight savings time. It’s my number one issue since having kids.
David Mandel
Jonah was right. There you go.
Robert Pease (co-host)
That was our special guest David Mandel. Perhaps not all of our listeners are sufficiently familiar with Veep to appreciate the irony of Jonah being right about anything— daylight savings or otherwise. So Jillian how should we describe Jonah to the uninitiated?
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Oh God, where to start? I think the one thing you need to know about Jonah is he eventually married his step-sister.
Interviewer
So what would you say to someone who might ask, “How can they marry; they’re step siblings?”
Jonah
I'm not her brother and I never was.
Beth
Except for that one year.
Jonah
Who wants to meet my brand new smokin’ hot wife, Beth? Beth, come on out here.
[applause]
Robert Pease (co-host)
Who of course was the perfectly-sweet, supportive political wife, or step-sister.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Or both. And he taps into a great anti-intellectual tradition. He declared a war on math, partly because his stepfather had failed him in 8th-grade algebra.
Jonah
Algebra? More like Al Jazeera! Under a Ryan presidency, I will ban this Sharia
math from being taught to American children. No more math! No more math! No more math!
Robert Pease (co-host)
Eventually, though— even with the character of Jonah played to annoying perfection by Tim Simons— David Mandel and the writers at Veep just couldn’t keep up with the realities of Washington.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
We asked him about that decision to wind down an award-winning, still highly-rated show, when— in his words— it was no longer possible to compete with the writers of a show called Trump.
David Mandel
Originally, I was thinking there might be two more seasons, or the season you saw and maybe a bonus half a season or something like that. Trump started his second year in office and— I've talked about this elsewhere— but to me, when he got past that second January in office, it's like, he put his foot on the gas and everything just got— and again, this is all pre-Covid— but things just started to get— in my opinion— more erratic. And the tweeting, the lying, all of these things just started to increase. And watching America over these, like January, February, March of that second year in office, that the show just felt like we are in second place to this. And it got really wild. I mentioned Jonah before. We did a joke where, at one of his [rallies], he brought up immigrants and one of his crowd members yelled, “ Kill them!” And he sort of said, “No, not all of them. There are some good ones.” And I remember that aired on a Sunday, and that Wednesday Trump was somewhere in Florida and more or less, he said something like “immigrants” and someone yelled “kill them” in his crowd— and by the way, I don't think it was a Veep fan quoting the show. I believe it was an actual general “kill them”— and Trump laughed at it and kind of went “Ha ha ha, only in Florida…” which in some ways was much worse than Jonah's response if you actually think about it. And so the space became, we were airing on Sunday and by Wednesday Trump was doing it. So we had to get off the air. There was no other way of saying it.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Well that speaks to a comment from one of our previous guests, Rod Lurie. As you know, he’s created a few movies and shows around presidential leadership including an independent president played by Geena Davis in Commander in Chief.
Rod Lurie
But there was something else that’s happened with political films, which is the political farce is out. You can't do it anymore. Not with Trump having been in office. What are you going to do that is more extreme than this clown? You couldn't make a character more goofy and caricature-ish than him. That show Veep is now a docu-drama.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Do you think that's still true?
David Mandel
Totally agree. I mean, I think these things go in cycles a little bit. Like in the eighties, when they made Vietnam War movies, I think there's a cycle to these things. And first we made our Rambos and then we made our Platoons and then we kind of went off and I do believe the time is right now for a West Wing, basically. Like I think The West Wing reboot right now would be the show I want to see because again, we got as dark as you could get and we got off the air while we could. And I think the time is now to sort of show the good of what government could do or the possibility of government that you just have to run counter to it.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Was it a relief not to have to be writing and producing a satirical show during the “Stop the Steal” protests and the Capitol insurrection?
David Mandel
I mean, yes and no. One of the things— I guess I'll simply say that it was a little bit fun— was during the last election cycle. We did a lot of Veep political events. So when Julia, for example, was announcing one of the events, she like filmed herself in her backyard, kind of announcing this Veep table read that we were going to be doing and basically had like the black hair dye, sort of just running down her face, a la Rudy Giuliani, and so I guess it would have been horrible to still be doing the show. That being said now it just feels like there's like four or five years at this point of some really ripe material. But again, only because it feels like the world has calmed down, like now the fire is out a little bit. Not that things are perfect, but it just feels like you could breathe again or I can breathe again and maybe the opportunity to do some jokes about this stuff would be kind of enjoyable.
Robert Pease (co-host)
There‘s always uncertainty in American politics. But there’s no question people will be laughing at Veep many elections from now. And getting a sobering look at our ego-driven political culture.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
This is one of the most decorated shows in television history; not just Julia Louis-Dreyfus winning 6 Emmy awards for best comedy actress, but also three wins for outstanding comedy series— including two during David Mandels’ tenure.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Veep has that special element in common with the great, enduring political satires, like the 1964 Cold War classic, Dr. Strangelove.
[scuffling noises]
Voice 1
Gentleman, you can’t fight in here! This is the war room!
Robert Pease (co-host)
Or Wag the Dog, the 1997 send-up of political spin machines on overdrive...
Dustin Hoffman
You want me to produce your war?
Robert DeNiro
Not a war; it's a pageant. We need a theme, a song, some visuals, we need, you know...it's a pageant. It's like the Oscars. That's why we came to you.
Dustin Hoffman
I never won an Oscar.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Veep is not simply funny because it’s wacky, it’s funny because it’s perfectly on the mark. The show portrays oh-so-familiar archetypes who are dealing in the hard Beltway currencies of image, poll numbers, campaign contributions and power.
Robert Pease (co-host)
As in, who can forget Selina’s confessions of her childhood aspirations...
Selina
If I was a little girl and you said to me, “What do you want to do?” I’d have said, “Please can I be president?”
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
And who cannot laugh—even while crying— at her inability to write a campaign speech on that very subject.
Selina
Hey, Gary, why would you want to be president? Amy, why would you want to president? Marjorie?
Marjorie
As the child of a native American—
Selina
Ok, I get the gist. I should be president because it’s my goddamn turn!
Robert Pease (co-host)
Beware, dear listener and dear voter, of what David Mandel calls “malignant narcissism and whatnot.”
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
Huge thanks to David Mandel for speaking with us while directing his upcoming HBO series, The White House Plumbers, a new angle on the Watergate scandal, which I can’t wait to watch.
Robert Pease (co-host)
And next time on The Purple Principle, we’ll talk about a president who— unlike Richard Nixon— could boast an 82% favorability rating (at least among NBC viewers). That was Jed Bartlet, played by Martin Sheen, on 7 seasons of The West Wing.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
That wildly-popular show ushered in a spate of political dramas in the early 21st century. But not everybody swooned over Aaron Sorkin’s fast-talking, liberal-leaning fantasy of the White House.
Luke Savage
The smugness of The West Wing is something that I come back to again and again. I think it's one of the least-attractive features of that show and its universe.
Robert Pease (co-host)
We talk to cultural critic Luke Savage on that point from his home in Toronto, Canada. He wrote the Current Affairs piece: “How Liberals Fell In Love With The West Wing.” And we’ll ask West Wing writer Paul Redford “Why wasn’t there more independent perspective on that show of all White House shows?”
Paul Redford
Honestly in the day-to-day just storytelling, I never, I was never sure how to do it. The independents wind up being some version of moderate, it was like, “Well, you have good points and you have good points.” And I'm all for moderation and I know that's what politics is all about, but that makes it intrinsically undramatic.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Please tune in next time for indie-minded perspective that is intriguing but not dramatically hyperpartisan.
Jillian Youngblood (co-host)
If you enjoyed this episode, please head over to Apple Podcasts to rate and review the show. And leave us a message— audio or otherwise— through our website at purpleprinciple.com.
Robert Pease (co-host)
Or via our Patreon page, where your support would be hugely appreciated. This has been Robert Pease and Jillian Youngblood for the Purple Principle team: Alison Byrne, Producer; Kevin A. Kline, Senior Audio Engineer; Emily Holloway, Digital Strategy; Dom Scarlett & Grant Sharratt, Research Associates; Emma Trujillo, Audio Associate. Original music composed and created by Ryan Adair Rooney. The Purple Principle is a Fluent Knowledge production.
